Having said that, I do feel sorry for her at times. Like most homeschooling CP/QF moms, she's got tons, lashings and heaps of ideas about what to do with homeschooling the littlest ones in the family while completely giving up on teaching the high schoolers in her family. Obviously, this makes me sad because I have tons, lashings and heaps of things that I've seen high schoolers do well with some support from teachers. I wish I was exaggerating her point of view but here's her own words:
By the time your children are high school aged, there should be very few teacher-led subjects, and other than checking in periodically with your child, they should be capable of going through their schoolwork alone.
My first thought is that any parent who is using this 'method' of homeschooling is lying if they describe themselves as teaching high school. The parent is telling the kid which subjects need to be done, providing the materials to do the subject, and hoping for the best. With that level of absentee-teaching, providing specific help is a crap-shoot. My first teaching job involved helping students who had dropped out of high school catch up in twelve separate independent study science courses. Now, since I have a college degree in Biology and Chemistry, I could figure out what the main idea of the lesson a student was struggling on quickly and adapt as needed. I question if most CP/QF homeschooling moms are as conversant in science or math to help their high schooled kids in a pinch.
My second thought is that some homeschooling parents have recreated the read - and - regurgitate method of teaching for high schoolers that the parents claim destroyed their love of education while they were in public schools. That method is antiquated in public schools now thanks to widespread access to computers and interest in project-based-learning, but apparently it's gained new life in some corners of homeschooling. I guess that proves that all educational theories are cyclic....yay?
In the rest of this post, I worry that Amy is missing the forest of college readiness for the trees of bashing public schoolers. Take this gem:
One of the biggest things my son noticed during the early months of his Freshman year in college was that most of his classmates needed to be told how to do everything. They couldn’t choose what color of pen to use, where to sit, how to do an assignment, or how to find the answers for the test. They wanted EVERYTHING lined out for them, rather than trying anything on their own.
Well, yes. Unlike Amy's son, students from traditional schools (and most home schools) are aware that each teacher or professor does things a little differently.
- Lots of professors will only take assignments in blue or black ink.
- Assigned seats are pretty common in lower-level lab classes in middle or large universities because different classes need different glassware and lab equipment so instructors save time by setting up the drawers ahead of time for a certain student.
- In my biology labs at college, I tell the students that I make up the tests and quizzes from the lab manual and the notes from my lectures; I never use the textbook because it varies between lecture instructors.
- I'd also far rather have a student ask a question about what I expect from an assignment than spend hours on a project that I think should take 45 minutes to an hour - or worse, toss it off in 5 minutes and get a bad grade.
I guess CP/QF homeschooled graduates could flail their way through and figure these things out by trial and error - but why not just ask questions?
In the next topic, Amy shares having her daughter work through her fear of dissecting:
Some parts of life are just hard and you just have to walk through that hard part. School is the same. (ahem…Algebra) My daughter begged and pleaded with me to let her skip dissecting. But, I knew she needed to overcome this obstacle. She sat at the table FOREVER trying to psyche herself up to even remove the fish from the bag it was in! But, I wasn’t giving in. I wasn’t going to make her path easy just for the sake of making it easy. And so, we sat there…for way longer than it should have taken anyone to dissect a fish! But when she was finished, she was proud of what she had accomplished! And so was I!
At the risk of undermining a great life lesson, why was dissecting a hill to die on?
I graduated in 2000 and dissecting in general high school biology classes was rapidly becoming passe then. Many students have realistic concerns about the treatment of dissection specimens prior to and when killed. I have concerns about exposing science teachers to the harmful chemicals used in preserving specimens. The cost of obtaining specimens is high. The cost of doing computer versions has become lower and lower - and is now generally included in most HS biology textbook online resources.
The current consensus is that computer-based dissections are the best option for general high school classes. For highly interested students, some schools use the saved money to fund a zoology or comparative anatomy class so that students who want to dissect can do so.
I mean, we've all gotta do things that suck sometimes - but I think this is an example of how home school families can get locked into doing whatever worked for the first kid to go through the curriculum. Apologia Biology costs about $400 to buy a textbook, online resources, DVD lessons, lab notebook, lab supplies and the tests/answer keys. Having a second student use the resources costs about $50.00 for a new set of tests and lab supplies compared to $400+ dollars to purchase a different option for science.
The link Amy includes on determining graduation requirements tells parents that it's rare for students to take physics in high school because physics requires pre-calculus. I suppose the implication is that most high school students don't take pre-calculus - but that's not true by any stretch of the imagination for kids who are interested in STEM careers. Also, it is completely possible to learn physics with a solid understanding of algebra rather than calculus.
The next theme is the common lament among homeschool parents that all colleges care about in admissions is the ACT or SAT scores. That is much more true for home school students than it is for students from traditional schools. Traditional schools send newly minted seniors off to colleges each year. Based on how those incoming freshmen do at a college, the admission department develops a feel for how well each program prepares students. Additionally, each student from that school are ranked within their class which provides a second data point. There's really no work around for homeschooling families other than the ACT or SAT since taking a standardized test essentially gives the colleges the same data that a traditional high school would include.
The last suggestion is that homeschooled kids ask for help when they need it. I find that ironic since Amy mocks public school kids for asking too many questions a few paragraphs earlier - but whatever. The odd bit, though, is that the example she uses. Her son had gotten all 'A's' in a class prior to the final and received a B overall in the class. Her son went to talk to the professor and learned some undefined lesson. There are two ways I can think of for this to happen. First, the college kid forgot a sizeable assignment or project somewhere along the line. (Happens to the best of us). Second, the kid got a C on a weighted final.
That made me wonder: how many homeschooled kids have experience with weighted grading prior to graduating? There are all sorts of rationales for and against weighted grading, but nearly all colleges and universities allow professors to count tests and exams as worth more towards the final grade in the class than the other assignments. For my biology courses, the classes were graded essentially from four tests each worth ~25% of the final grade. All the other assignments counted for <10% of the final grade. My chemistry classes, on the other hand, gave labs 25% of the final grade, divided 50% of the final grade across three tests, and had the final worth 25% of the final grade.
Look, re-creating pre-K through 12th grade education should be scary - but there's better ways to do it than hefting it off onto the teenager. Join a co-op. Have the kid take the GED and dual-enroll at a community college. Befriend a local college admission officer or high school guidance counselor. Read up the information at the College Board.
Just make sure the information you are getting is based in reality...where quite a few high school students take physics and pre-calculus.
Great post! Happy to see you writing again, I hope this means you're progressively on the mend.
ReplyDeleteThank you! I'm feeling a bit better day by day.
DeleteEven University physics 1 didn't require calculus. All the physics concepts that required calculus were reserved for University physics 2. And those are the courses meant for science and engineering students. Everyone else took college physics 1 & 2 which don't require calculus at all. Maybe AP high school physics requires calculus but my physics class didn't. I'm sure if she looked she could find high school course catalogs online that would tell her the real prerequisites for these courses
ReplyDeleteHere in MI, the colleges offer two different options for Intro to Physics. One is algebra-based; the other is calculus-based. The advisors sort people into the correct class but a good rule of thumb is that people majoring in physics, engineering or math majors who are looking to minor in physics get slotted into calc-based intro to physics since that's playing to their strengths or the level of math competency that they are expected to be at. For everyone else, algebra-based is strongly recommended.
DeleteI pulled up a few course catalogs from my alma mater and a few local high schools for honors or AP physics. Most required that the student have completed Algebra II/Trig with a C or higher - which sounds about right from what I remember. I remember doing a lot of algebraic systems of equations work interspaced with some trig problems. Now, I suspect a lot of students who were taking Physics would be enrolled in either pre-calc, FST, or calculus at the same time - but that's not the same thing as requiring it. A lot of those kids would be taking Foreign Language 3 or 4 - and that's not a requirement either.
Also I used apologia general science and physical science in my Christian middle School. Talk about psuedoscience. Not just young earth creationism either but also graphs cropped to make it look like global morning is false and the whole in the ozone later was fake. Also there was a whole chapter on how the Bible had to be true because there are so many copies. Which is an odd argument from an author that rejects the scientific consensus (also it doesn't have anything to do with science and was just a waste of science class time).
ReplyDeleteSorry about the typos. Autocomplete and I are not friends.
DeleteAll good :-)
DeleteI got a copy of Apologia Biology somewhere. It's a hot mess. The format of the book is moving through various types of life forms and hitting topics along the way. That was a style that fell out of favor in the 1960's in favor of moving from the chemical basis of life --> cells --> organisms --> ecology --> evolution. Another way of describing Apologia Biology would be organisms ---> cells ---> organisms --->organisms ---->plants and fungi are organisms, too
DeleteOn top of that, it badly needs a copy editor and someone who knows how to do desktop publishing. I also wonder about the students who write reviews about how interesting the stories and pictures are since Apologia is far less visually appealing and contains almost no connecting interesting scenarios.....
I think the good reviews are because for elementary school a lot of Christian schools/homeschools used A Beka or Bob Jones textbooks. Dr Whiles books are bad but they aren't that bad. Also apparently the new editions aren't written by Dr. Wile so I have no idea what they are like as I used the first editions.
DeleteI got stuck on the idea that it's rare for a high school student to take physics. What? It's rare for the [college-bound] high school student NOT to take physics! And even the AP Physics class doesn't require calculus as a prereq although many students are simultaneously enrolled in calculus (which is also not rare for the brighter college-bound students).
ReplyDeleteIn Michigan, all high school graduates have to pass either Chemistry or Physics. In most districts, students have a choice of either - but in the smaller, rural districts the classes might be offered biannually.
DeleteEven back when I was in HS in the late 1990's, most college-bound students took at least three years of HS science with one year being Chem or Physics and our graduation requirements were a lot looser.
I feel like some home schooling sites make parents feel better about how they home school by regurgitating just-so-stories of what the homeschool community wishes were true about traditional schools
Yes. This whole "most kids don't take physics anyway" falsehood is just a way of setting the bar super low for themselves. Which is weird because I'd always heard one big reason for homeschooling was supposedly that kids are way ahead of their peers and they get such a better education.
DeleteWhen I was in high school college-bound required 4 years of science, everyone else had to take 2. I took a general science class, biology, astronomy and chemistry. I avoided physics because I was intimidated by it but a lot of college-bounds took it, not just STEM peeps.
And we didn't even have a pre-calc class in my high school, so everything must have been algebra-based.
I wonder if she's not feeling confident about science herself so she's making excuses about her high schooler's education? That's sad.
I've know lots of homeschoolers. Some have been well educated and some poorly but I don't know any that took seven science courses in high school like I did. Obviously that's not required by any means it just illustrates how it's really hard for parents to provide the same opportunities as a good public high school.
DeleteGlad to see you back. I hope that means you're doing better!
ReplyDeleteDo you have an email address we can send stuff to? I recently came across a copy of the Botkin's homeschooling seminar they did a few years ago. As a teacher I'd love to hear your take-down of it. I also found Victoria's terrifying talks "She Shall Be Called Woman." I think you'd have a lot of fun with it.
I'd love to get copies! It will probably take me awhile to analyze it, though.
DeleteI keep an email for the blog at whencowsandkidscollide at gmail
Ohh, what kind of copy did you find? An audio of it?
DeleteMy siblings and I (all homeschooled in the 80s and 90s, K-12) were expected to do all of our schoolwork on our own by 3rd grade. Although we were good students, it was boring as heck and it left quite a few educational gaps (Abeka science...nuff said). During a semester in private school, I retained much more information. Having good teachers and classmate interaction sparked excitement, and I developed interests in things that otherwise would have slipped on by.
ReplyDeleteMy parents were against schools though, even private Christian ones, because of teachings going around that spoke against "peer dependency." Meaning family relationships should be enough for children. Having outside friends means the kids will want to spend all their time away from family, and rely on peers for friendship and support (plus they're vulnerable to eeeevil influences). Dobson, the Pearls and quite a few more are outspoken on this. I bring it up because it seems widespread in QF as well from what I've heard.
Anyway, I loooove your blog. I've lived through lots of stuff you write about, and really appreciate your common sense approach. It's helped me see some things more clearly and helped me bring closure in some areas. Keep up the good work.
Hi, Jen! Wow, third grade is so young to expect kids to learn completely on their own. We're probably pretty close in age and I remember being thrilled in 2nd grade when the classrooms had encyclopedias in them because I was often bored in school. Having said that, I needed help frequently to cover gaps in areas of my personal learning because even gifted 2nd or 3rd graders are very inexperienced in life in general and only starting to have the skills to critique their own work!
DeleteOh, God. Abeka science is awful! I love science and it makes me mad/sad that so many homeschooled kids are being fed the watered-down, gap-filled pap that Abeka, ACE and Apologia peddle under the guise of protecting the faith of the kids.
Somewhere in the train-wreck that I call my sewing room is a copy of a ATI-promoted book on peer dependency. It's on my list of books to review - but that one is hard for me to read because the mom takes so much pride in crushing her kids' independence.
Thank you for your kind words!