Making Great Conversationalists: Chapter One - Part Three

Living an extremely sheltered life makes writing hard - or at least would if the authors were aware of the effect their dialogues have on the normal mortals who read them.  Steven and Teri Maxwell's "Making Great Conversationalists" starts with a series of dialogues written to demonstrate the "bad" conversations that outsiders have followed by "good" conversations that people who work their way through the book will inspire.   I find it questionable that the book will actually teach many conversational skills - but if the book does, the users of the book may find that the response to their conversations in real life is substantially different than the promised outcomes.

The third dialogue in this chapter crystalizes this concern of mine.  The set-up is straightforward; you are supposed to imagine your 23 year old son calling the father of a girl he wants to court:

As your children get older, the states become higher and conversation failures more costly. Your 23 year old son, Rob, has a full-time job and knows a godly young lady whom he would like to court with the purpose of marriage. He knows the procedure is for the young man to approach the girl's father to express interest in his daughter. The big day for the all-important phone call has arrived.

Ring... Ring..." Hello. Dan Simmons here."

" Ah, ah, ah. This is Rob Miller calling. Do you got a minute?"

" Sure, Rob, what's on your mind?"

" Well, uh, I'm, ah, well... I was, thinking, ah, well, and, like, ah, I need to talk to you."

" Rob, go ahead."

" Yeah, well, I'm, like, I, I, I really like Katie., Can I court her?"

"Rob, that's a very important question. I would like to spend some time with you, and get to know you, and then pray about that answer. I happen to have some time right now. Why don't we start getting to know each other? Tell me a little bit about yourself."

" Well,, I'm 23 and have my own car."

" Anything else?"

" Well,, I have three brothers and three sisters."

" And?"

" My dad is an electrician."

" Rob, why don't you tell me about yourself spiritually what you do for a living, and what your interests are - those sort of things."

" Sure, of course. Well, I like, ah, Mr. Simmons, I'm sort of nervous about this, you know?"

" Of course, Rob, I understand."

"Well, I'm 23 and have my own car. Oh, I think I told you that. Well, and I, I work for Dan Harmon doing construction. I, and I, I've worked for him like, 2 years now. And, let's see, I joined the church when I was eight. And, I sang in the choir for like 5 years, and I go to the singles group in church. Well,, my interests? I, ah, like to work on my car a lot. Well, um, I suppose that's mostly it.. Anything else you want to know?"

What is the likelihood of Mr. Simmons seriously considering your son as a candidate to court his daughter? If you were Mr. Simmons, might you have some serious questions as to whether Rob with capable of providing for and protecting your daughter simply by the way he handled this important conversation? What a poor impression Rob just made. (pg. 13-14)

Let me start with the first paragraph - the one that states that Rob knows the procedure for courting.  I've often discussed how emotional purity and parent-led courtship screws daughters over - but this system screws young men over, too.  The father holds all of the power in his relationship with the potential suitor.  There's no CP/QF agreement of what things the father of a young woman can ask a potential suitor to do - and no agreement about what actions or requests are out-of-line.   The McDonald family had a list of 300-odd questions for a suitor to discuss with the parents (and eventually the young woman he wanted to court.)  Jim Bob Duggar's 50 pages of questions have received quite a bit of discussion online.   I have no idea what levels of hell Geoffrey Botkin would dream up for a potential suitor of Anna Sofia or Elizabeth - but the suitor would be better off starting from whatever educational level they were at and aiming to become a neurosurgeon; the process would be smoother and easier.   If the suitor refuses to jump, he loses all access to the woman he's attracted to - which means the amount of risk is nowhere near equal for the father compared to the suitor.

And remember - we have no idea of Katie wants to be courted by Rob.  Rob could go through spilling his innermost feelings and beliefs to Mr. Simmons only to be rejected by Katie. 

The whole process feels slimy, voyeuristic and invasive.

I don't have a daughter yet - and we're not doing this courting shit - but my husband and I were honestly impressed enough by Rob to give him our "blessing" to ask Katie on a date.  Rob's been employed for a couple of years in construction.   He's earned enough to buy a car.  He's self-aware enough and brave enough to admit he's nervous about this conversation. While calling me and my husband was completely unnecessary,  Rob was brave enough to do so - and politic enough not to hang up when confronted with rather rude behavior from the other end.  He's stuck with a volunteer ministry for 5 years.   And - most importantly of all - Rob likes Katie.   That's good enough for me and mine.

Does Katie like Rob?  I have no idea - but she's a big girl who can make that decision herself.

I'm also not getting more invested in this relationship that my daughter is.  See, I could make Rob jump through all sorts of hoops - but that's simply making Rob show-off for me - and I'm not the woman who might end up vowing to be his wife through good times and bad.   Katie's the person who is making a huge life decision and so Katie gets to decide what hoops Rob must jump through.

I hope that Rob is taking some notes on Dan Simmon's personality.  Simmon is a prick.  Most people would take some pity on Rob who is clearly sweating bullets at the idea of talking to Katie's father.  Not Dan Simmon!  After being abrupt and pushy in the first few lines of the call, he's magically got time right now for Rob to start the most important interview of Rob's life.  When Rob starts by talking about the normal things that people in their late teens or early twenties talk about like their car or their family of origin, Dan is strangely dismissive of Rob's family of origin because Dan really cares about Rob's job, hobbies and spirituality.   If I were Katie, I would be interested in Rob's family of origin.  After all, those are my future in-laws.

Steven Maxwell's heavy-handed habit of telling his readers exactly what to think is grating on my nerves.  Unlike Teri Maxwell who has a smooth and generally calm way of discussing a new idea, Steven Maxwell feels compelled to club readers over the head with the "right answer".  The next section is Steven Maxwell's fever dream of the ideal suitor for Sarah-Anna-Mary:

Now let's replay Rob's initial phone call is a good conversationalist because you have taught him all the necessary conversational skills. Notice how confident and smooth he is.

Ring... Ring..." Hello, Dan Simmons here."

" Mr. Simmons, this is Rob Miller calling. Do you have a minute, sir?"

"Sure, Rob. What's on your mind?"

" Mr. Simmons, I feel the Lord has been telling me that it is time to get married, and it keeps putting your daughter, Katie, on my heart is the one he wants for my wife. Sir, I wanted to share that with you, so that you might prayerfully consider my interest in courting Katie."

" I am sure you already know some things about me, but I would like to get together with you privately and explain what the Lord Jesus is doing in my life and how He is leading me. It would give you an opportunity to ask any questions you might have of me. Is there a convenient time we could get together?"

Did you notice how Rob performed this time? He confidently took charge of the call and clearly communicated his purpose. Mr. Simons initial opinion of Rob would have been that he is a young man who knew where he was going and converse on an adult level. It is too early to tell whether Mr Simon's would let Rob court Katie, but it is likely that Rob has succeeded in making a great impression. (pg. 15)

Steven Maxwell may be in love with Rob 2.0 - but the universal response of everyone I've read Rob 2.0's speech is revulsion and deep concern for Katie's safety.   Rob 2.0 sounds completely detached from reality at best and psychotic at worst.    Hint: no one in the USA outside of Rob calls a random man and leads off a conversation with "Jesus told me that I'm supposed to marry your daughter! I'm gonna give you a chance to ask me some questions, then we can discuss how best to transfer Katie and her goods to me."  There's a level of insanity or narcissism in Rob's declaration that Dan really  needs to know that God Himself is telling Rob that Katie and Rob should get married.  Even in the exceptionally patriarchal culture that is CP/QF-land, Rob is crossing a line by expecting that God's revelation to him - the same 23-year old third-year construction worker, choir singing, car owner as before - has more weight than Dan Simmon's understanding of what God wants for Katie.

For someone outside of CP/QF land, this declaration is vastly more disturbing in the face of the fact that Katie ideally has no interest, attraction or awareness of Rob's I mean God's flowering plan for her.   It's one thing for Rob to make a weird phone call to get permission to date a girl he knows is attracted to him; it's a whole new level of crazy to proclaim to her father that Katie is destined to be his wife (after all, what else does God's leading mean?) on their first phone call.

Perhaps we should take a smidgen of comfort from Maxwell's belated inclusion that Mr. Simmons won't necessarily let Rob court Katie based solely on his amazingly skilled phone conversation - or maybe we have an answer as to why the Maxwells have failed to find suitors for any of their three daughters.

The last dialogue in this chapter is between a young father and his young SAHM wife when he comes home from work.